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Interview

Pope: "I trust the young politicians. Corruption is a global problem"

14 set, 2015 - 08:40 • Aura Miguel (Vatican)

In an exclusive interview with Portugal's Radio Renascença, Pope Francis says that people are disappointed with "corruption at all levels". The Pope believes that "Europe’s greatest challenge is to go back to being a mother Europe" and calls europeans to welcome the refugees. The Church should be active in the society. “A Church which does not go out keeps Jesus imprisoned.” Read the full interview with Pope Francis.
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As a Pope who came from “the end of the World”, how do you see Portugal and the Portuguese people?

I was only ever in Portugal once, in the airport, years ago. I was flying to Rome with Varig and there was a stopover in Lisbon, so I only know the airport. But I do know lots of Portuguese people. At the seminary in Buenos Aires many of the staff were Portuguese emigrants. Good people, who were close to the seminarians. And my father had a Portuguese colleague. I remember his name, Adelino, a good man. And once I met a Portuguese lady, more than 80 years old, who left a good impression. Which is to say, I never met any bad Portuguese.

In your speech to the Portuguese bishops, besides complimenting the Portuguese people and giving a serene overview of the situation of the Church, you mention two concerns: one in relation to the youth and another about Catechises. You use an image, saying that “the first communion dresses no longer fit young adults”, but that certain communities “insist on trying to make them wear them”… What is the problem?

It’s a manner of speaking. Young people are more informal and have their own pace. We have to let them grow, to accompany them, not to leave them alone, but accompany them. And to know how to accompany them prudently, knowing when to speak at the right moment, and knowing how to listen a lot. Young people are restless. They don’t want to be bothered and, in that sense, you can say that the “first communion dress no longer fits”. Children, on the other hand, like the first communion dress when they go to communion. It’s an illusion. But young adults have other illusions, because they are changing, they are growing, they are searching, are they not? That is why you need to let them grow, accompany them, respect them and speak in a very fatherly way.

Because at the same time there are certain standards to propose, but those standards are often not attractive!

That is why you need to find what does attract that young person and demand that. For example: If you propose – and we see this everywhere – a hike, or a camping trip, or to go away on a mission, or sometimes to go to a “cotolengo” [Homes for the ill, or people with severe disabilities, who have been abandoned by their families and are at risk. Founded by an Italian priest] to look after sick people for a week, or a fortnight, he will be enthused, because he wants to do something for others. He feels enveloped.

“Enveloped”?

Yes, he gets drawn in, he commits. He doesn’t look from outside. He gets involved, that is, he commits.

So then why doesn’t he stay?

Because he is making his way.

So then what is the challenge that the church has to undertake? You spoke also about a type of catechesis, which often remains theoretical and which is unable to propose a personal encounter…

Yes, it is important that catechesis not be purely theoretical. That won’t do. Catechesis is about giving them doctrine for life and, therefore, it has to include three languages: The language of the mind, the language of the heart and the language of the hands. Catechesis has to include those three: that the young person might think and know what faith is, but, at the same time, feel with his heart what faith is and, on the other hand, get things done. If the catechesis is missing one of these three languages, it stagnates. Three languages: thinking about how you feel and what you do, feeling what you think and what you do, doing what you feel and what you think.

Listening to you speak, this all seems clear… but, looking around – especially in old Europe, old Christendom – that’s not how things are. What is missing? A change of mentality? How do you go about it?

I don’t know about changing mentalities, because I’m not familiar with everything, am I? But it’s true that the methodology is sometimes incomplete. We must find a catechetical methodology which binds the three things: The truths which must be believed, what one should feel and what one does, what one should do, together.

Your Holiness, we are expecting you in Portugal for the centenary of the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima. Three popes have already visited us (John Paul II three times). You are very devoted to the Blessed Virgin, what do you expect of your trip in 2017?

Well, let’s get this straight. I would very much like to go to Portugal for the centenary. In 2017 it is also the 300 year anniversary of the discovery of the image of Our Lady of Aparecida in Brasil.

So I would also like to go there and I promised that I would. As for Portugal, I said I want to go, I’d like to go. It is easier to get to Portugal, we can go and return on the same day or, at the most, go for a day and half or two days. To go and see the Blessed Virgen. She is a mother, so much a mother, and her presence accompanies the people of God. So I would like to go to Portugal, which is a privileged country.

And what are you expecting of us, the Portuguese? How can we prepare for your visit and the best to follow Our Lady’s requests?

The Virgin Mary always asks us to pray, to look after the family and follow the commandments. She doesn’t make odd requests. She asks us to pray for those who have lost their way, for those who say they are sinners – aren’t we all? I am the first. But she does ask, and those requests should be used to prepare, through those motherly messages, so motherly… And to make herself known through children. It’s curious, She always looks to the simple souls, doesn’t she? Very simple.

As we speak there is a refugee crisis. How are you experiencing this situation?

It is the tip of an iceberg. These poor people are fleeing war, hunger, but that is the tip of the iceberg. Because underneath that is the cause; and the cause is a bad and unjust socioeconomic system, in everything, in the world – speaking of the environmental problem –, in the socioeconomic society, in politics, the person always has to be in the centre. That is the dominant economic system nowadays, it has removed the person from the centre, placing the god money in its place, the idol of fashion. There are statistics, I don’t remember precisely, (I might have this wrong), but that 17% of the world’s population has 80% of the wealth.

And this exploitation of the third world countries, in the medium run, brings these consequences: All these people who now wish to come to Europe…

And the same thing happens in the big cities. Why do the slums appear in the big cities?

It’s the same criteria…

The same. These are people who came from the countryside, because it has been deforested, because of monoculture. They don’t have work, so they go to the big cities.

And it’s the same in Africa…

In Africa, the same phenomenon. So, these emigrants who are coming to Europe – it’s the same thing – looking for somewhere. And, of course, for Europe at the moment, this is a surprise, because we can barely believe these things are happening, right? But they are.

But when you went to Strasbourg, you said it was necessary to act on the causes and not only on the effects. It seems nobody listened to you then and, now, the effects are clear to see…

We have to go to the causes.

But probably nobody listened to you…

Where the causes are hunger, we have to create work, investments. Where the cause is war, search for peace, work for peace. Nowadays the world is at war against itself, that is, the world is at war, as I say, in instalments, bit by bit, but it is also at war against the land, because it is destroying the land, our common house, the environment. The glaciers are melting, in the Arctic, the polar bear keeps moving North in order to survive…

And we seem to ignore the preoccupation with man and his destiny… How do you see the reactions in Europe at the moment, with so many different positions: some build walls, others pick refugees according to their religion, others take advantage of the situation to make demagogic speeches…

Every one interprets their own culture. And, sometimes, the ideological interpretation, or that of ideas, is easier than to get things done, which is reality. Further away from Europe there is another phenomenon which hurt me deeply: the Rohingya [Muslim ethnic group, probably originating in Myanmar. Marginalized and persecuted for ethnic and religious reasons. The UN has singled out the Rohingya as one of the most persecuted minorities in the world], who are expelled from their country, get into boats and leave. They reach a port or a beach, and they are fed and given water and then sent out to sea again, and not taken in. There is a lack of capacity for welcoming humanity.

Because it is not about tolerating, it is more than tolerating: it is welcoming…!

Welcoming, welcoming people, and welcoming them as they are. I am the son of emigrants and I belong to the emigration of 1929. But in Argentina, since 1884 Italians and Spanish began to arrive… I don’t know when the first wave of Portuguese arrived. But they came mostly from these three countries. And when they arrived, some had money, others would go to the emigrant hotels and from there they would be sent to the cities. They would go to work, or to search for work. It is true that, in those days there was work, but the ones from my family – who had jobs when they arrived in 29 – by 1932, with the economic crisis of the thirties, were out on the street, with nothing. My grandfather bought a warehouse with 2000 pesos which he borrowed, and my father, who was an accountant, was selling goods out of a basket. So they had the will to fight, to succeed… I know about migration! And then came the migrations of the Second World War, especially from central Europe, many Poles, Slovaks, Croatians, Slovenians and also Syrians and Lebanese. And we always got along over there. There was no xenophobia in Argentina. And now there are the internal migrations within America, they come from other American countries to Argentina, despite having diminished over the past few years, because there has been less work in Argentina.

And also from Mexico to the United States…

This migration phenomenon is a reality. But I want to speak about this without pointing my finger at anyone in particular. When there is an empty space, people try to fill it. If a country has no children, immigrants come in and take their place. I think of the birth-rate in Italy, Portugal and Spain. I believe it is close to 0%. So, if there are no children, there are empty spaces. And this not wanting to have children is, partly – and this is my interpretation, which may not be correct –, due to a culture of comfort, isn’t it? In my own family I heard, a few years ago, my Italian cousins saying: “Children? No. We prefer to travel on our vacations, or buy a villa, or this and that”… And the elderly are more and more alone. I believe Europe’s greatest challenge is to go back to being a mother Europe…

…as opposed to…

… grandmother Europe.

Although, there are European countries which are young, for example, Albania. Albania impressed me, people around 40, 45… and Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, countries which rebuilt themselves after a war.

Which is why you visited them…

Ah yes, of course. It is a sign for Europe.

But this challenge to welcome these refugees who are making their way into Europe, in your point of view, could it be positive for Europe? Could it be beneficial, a provocation? Is Europe finally waking up, changing track?

It may be. It’s true, I recognize that, nowadays, border safety conditions are not what they once were. The truth is that just 400 kilometres from Sicily there is an incredibly cruel terrorist group. So there is a danger of infiltration, this is true.

Which could reach Rome…

Yes, nobody said Rome would be immune to this threat. But you can take precautions, and put these people to work. But then there is another problem, that Europe is going through a very big labour crisis. There is a country… In fact, I am going to mention three countries, although I will not name them, but some of the most important in Europe, in which unemployment for under 25 year olds is, in one country 40%, in another 47% and in a third 50%. There is a labour crisis, young people can’t find work. So it is a mixture of things and we can’t be simplistic. Obviously, if a refugee arrives, despite all the safety precautions, we must welcome him, because this is a commandment from the Bible. Moses said to his people: “welcome the foreigner, because you also were a foreigner in the land of Egypt”.

But the ideal would be that they didn’t need to flee, that they could remain in their lands?

That’s right, Yes.

Your Holiness, during the Sunday Angelus you made this very concrete challenge to welcome refugees. Have there been reactions? What do you expect, exactly?

What I asked was that in each parish and each religious institute, every monastery, should take in one family. A family, not just one person. A family gives more guarantees of security and containment, so as to avoid infiltrations of another kind. When I say that a parish should welcome a family, I don’t mean that they should go and live in the priest’s house, in the rectory, but that each parish community should see if there is a place, a corner in the school which can be turned into a small apartment or, if necessary, that they may rent a small apartment for this family; but that they should be provided with a roof, welcomed and integrated into the community. I have had many, many reactions. There are convents which are almost empty…

Two years ago you had already made this request, what answers did you get?

Only four. One of them from the Jesuits [laughs]; well done, the Jesuits! But this is a serious subject, because there is also the temptation of the god money. Some religious orders say “no, now that the convent is empty we are going to make a hotel and we can have guests, and support ourselves that way, or make money”. Well, if that is what you want to do, then pay taxes! A religious school is tax-exempt because it is religious, but if it is functioning as a hotel, then it should pay taxes just like its neighbour. Otherwise it is not fair business.

And you have already said that you will be taking in two families, here in the Vatican…

Yes, two families. I was told yesterday that the families have already been identified, and the two Vatican parishes have undertaken to go and search for them.

They have been identified?

Yes, yes, yes, they have. Cardinal Comastri dealt with that – he is my vicar-general for the Vatican – along with Monsenhor Konrad Krajewski, who is the Apostolic Almoner, and who works with the homeless and was in charge of installing the showers underneath the colonnade, and the barbers – truly marvellous. He is the one who takes the homeless to see the museums and the Sistine Chapel…

And how long will these families be staying?

As long as the Lord wants. We don’t know how this will end, do we? Nonetheless, I want to say that Europe has opened its eyes, and I thank it. I thank the European countries which have become opened their eyes to this.

Our media group has joined a platform with other Christian institutions, as well as from other religions, whose goal is to help welcome the refugees. Do you have any words of support for those who help and also for our listeners and staff?

I congratulate you and I thank you for what you are doing, and let me give you some advice: On Judgement Day we already know how we will be judged. It is written in chapter 25 of the Gospel of Saint Matthew. When Jesus asks you: “I was hungry, did you feed me?” you will answer “Yes”… “and when I was a refugee, did you help me?”, “Yes”. So I congratulate you: you will pass the test! And I’d also like to say something about the unoccupied youth. I think it is urgent, especially for those religious orders whose mission is education, but also for the laypeople, the lay educators, to invent courses, short emergency schools. If a young unoccupied person studies cooking or plumbing for six months, so as to be able to do small jobs – there is always a roof to mend –, or as a painter, with that experience he will find it easier to get a job, even if it is part-time or temporary. He can do what we call odd-jobs and that way he won’t be unoccupied. Now we are living in an age of emergency education. That is what Don Bosco did. Don Bosco, when he saw the amount of children on the street, said “there has to be education”, but he didn’t ship the children off to secondary or middle school, he got them to learn trades. So he arranged for some carpenters and some plumbers, who taught them the ropes and, that way, they always had a way to make a living.

Now I would like to tell a story about Don Bosco, here in Rome, near Trastevere, where…

... Which is a poor area...

…Yes, a very poor area, but now it is all the fashion for young people to go out. Well Don Bosco drove by in a horse drawn carriage – or in a car, I don’t know – and somebody threw a stone and it broke the window. So he told the company to stop and said: “This is where we should stay!” See, faced with an act of aggression, he took it as a chance to help those people, the children, the young people who only knew how to lash out. And today there is a small Salesian parish in that spot which educates the youth and the children, with its schools and things. And so we find ourselves back with the youth: it is important that we give the youth of today, especially the ones who can’t find work, an emergency education in some field which allows them to make a living.

You are also very critical of the European and Western, what is known as the first world, life style, too centred on comfort. What bothers you most?

Well, I mean, it is also present in the bit American cities, North or South America, they have the same problem, it isn’t only in Europe…

…It’s the so called first world…

Yes, in the big cities… In Buenos Aires there is a big sector of comfort culture, and so there are also those chords around the cities, the slums and all those things. As for Europe, nowadays, I wouldn’t throw those things in its face. One must recognize that Europe has an outstanding culture. Truly, it is centuries of culture and that also bestows an intellectual comfort. Anyhow, what I would say to Europe has to do with its ability to retake a leadership role in the concert of nations. That it should once again become the Europe which determines the path to follow, because it has the culture necessary to do so.

But has Europe maintained its identity? Is it in a position to affirm its identity?

I thought long and hard about what I said in Strasbourg. I’d go back to that: Europe has not died. It is a little grand-motherly [laughs], but it can return to being a mother. And I have confidence in the young politicians. The young politicians sing a different tune. There is a world problem, which affects not only Europe but the whole world, which is the problem of corruption. Corruption at all levels… That also reveals a shallow morality, doesn’t it?

In your latest encyclical you speak of this, you ask people to be more aware, but we still see a lot of abstention. If you look in detail at the results of elections, abstention often gets a higher percentage than a political party…

Because people are disappointed. Partly, because of corruption, partly because of inefficiency, and partly because of previous commitments. Nevertheless, Europe can – can and should – and I repeat what I said in Strasbourg, Europe has to fulfil its role, that is, to recover its identity. True, Europe made a mistake – I’m not criticizing, just remembering –, when it chose to speak of its identity without wanting to recognize the deepest level of its identity, its Christians roots. That was a mistake. But, well, we all make mistakes in life… It’s time to recover its faith.

Your holiness, a question for the listeners, because of this wave of individualism: What can touch the freedom of somebody who does what he wants, who was educated from a young age with a concept of happiness which says that “happiness means not having problems”? Generally, children are educated to aspire to “not having problems and doing what one wants”…

Life without problems is dull. It’s boring. Man has, within him, the need to face and solve conflicts and problems. Obviously, an education to not have problems is an aseptic education. Try it: Take a glass of mineral water, common tap water, then take a glass of distilled water. It’s disgusting, but the distilled water doesn’t have problems… [laughs] it’s like raising children in a lab, isn’t it? Please…!

Is it important to run risks?

Run risks and always set goals! You need to use your feet to educate. To educate well you need to have one foot firmly planted on the ground and another lifted and further forward, wondering where you can rest it. And when that one is set on the floor I raise this one [motions with his feet] and… This is educating: To support yourself on something safe, but to try and take a step forward until it is firm, then another step…

It takes work to educate like that…

It’s running risks! Why? Because you might misstep and fall… So, lift yourself up and move along!

Your Holiness, in this individualist era we live in – and you mentioned this in Strasbourg – it seems that people are always speaking of rights, always separated from the search for truth. Do you believe that this is also a problem that affects how one lives one’s faith?

It can be… Always demanding, without the generosity of giving. We demand our rights, but not our obligations towards society. I believe that rights and obligations should go hand in hand. Otherwise we are creating a mirror education; because education in front of a mirror is narcissism and today we are living in a narcissistic civilization.

And how does one win this fight?

With education, for example, with rights and obligations, with an education of reasonable risks, looking for goals, moving forward and not standing still or looking at the mirror… So as not to suffer the same fate as Narcisus, who looked at himself in the mirror so much, and found himself so gorgeous, that he drowned. [Blup!]

Your Holiness, you say you prefer a Church with is bruised rather than a stagnated Church. What do you mean by “bruised”?

Yes, let me explain: it’s an image of life. If somebody has a room in his house which is closed for long periods, it develops humidity, and a bad smell. If a church, a parish, a diocese or an institute lives closed in on itself it grows ill (just like with the closed room) and we are left with a scrawny Church, with strict rules, no creativity. Safe, more than safe, insured by an insurance agency, but not safe! On the contrary – if it goes forth – if a Church and a parish go out into the world, then once outside they might suffer the same fate as anybody else who goes out: have an accident. Well in that case, between a sick and a bruised Church, I prefer the bruised, because at least it went into the street. Here I want to repeat something that I already said in another circumstance: In the Bible, in the book of the Apocalypse, there is something extremely beautiful about Jesus. I believe it is in the second chapter (either at the end of the first, or at the beginning of the second), in which he is speaking to a Church and says “I am at the door and I knock” – Jesus is knocking – “If you open the door I will come in and share a meal with you”. But, I ask, how often, in Church, has Jesus knocked on the door, but on the inside, so as to be let out to proclaim the kingdom. Sometimes we appropriate Jesus, just for us, and we forget that a Church which is not going out into the world, a Church which does not go out, keeps Jesus imprisoned.

Is that why you were elected Pope?!

You have to ask the Holy Spirit!

[laughs loud]

Holy Father, since you were elected Pope, do you consider that the Church is already more bruised?

I don’t know. I know that, from what I’m told, God has been greatly blessing His Church. This is a moment which does not depend on me, but on the blessing God wishes to give His Church, at this time. And now, with this Jubilee of Mercy, I hope that many people experience the Church as mother. Because the Church can suffer from the same thing that happened to Europe, can’t it? Become too much of a grandmother, instead of a mother, incapable of generating life.

Is this the reason behind the Jubilee of Mercy?

Come all! Come and feel the love and the forgiveness of God. In Buenos Aires I met a Capuchin friar, a little younger than me, who was a great confessor. He always has a long queue, lots of people, and he confesses all day. He is a great “forgiver”, he forgives so much. And sometimes he feels guilty for having forgiven so much. Once we were talking and he said: “Sometimes I feel guilty”. And I asked him: “And what do you do when you feel guilty like that?” – “I go before the tabernacle, I look at the Lord and say to Him: Lord, forgive me, today I forgave so much, but let it be very clear that it is all your fault, because you were the one who set me the bad example!”

For this reason you also decided, in this letter [to Monsenhor Fisicchella about the Jubilee of Mercy] to propose forgiveness for difficult situations and it is why you just published these documents [motu proprio - norms of the Catholic Church which are decided on the initiative of the Pope himself and are usually in the form of a decree] which speed up the process for declarations of nullity. Does this also have anything to do with the Jubilee?

Yes, to simplify… Ease people’s faith. And that the Church might be like a mother…

What, exactly, is the reason behind the motu proprio for declarations of nullity? To expedite?

Expedite, expedite the processes in the hands of the bishop. One judge, one defender of the bond, one sentence, because up until now you needed two sentences. No, now it’s just one. If there is no appeal, it’s done. If there is an appeal it goes to the metropolitan, but expedite, yes. And also making the processes free.

Were you thinking of the synod and the Jubilee?

It is all related

I know you don’t want to talk about the synod, but in your heart of Universal Pastor, what are you asking?

I ask that people pray a lot. As for the synod, you journalists are already familiar with the Instrumentum Laboris. We are going to speak of that, of what is in there. It’s three weeks, one theme, one chapter, for each week. And we have high expectations because, obviously, the family is in crisis. Young people no longer get married. They don’t get married. Or then, with this short term culture, they say “I’ll either move in with her or I’ll get married, but only for as long as love lasts, then bye-bye…”

And what does the Holy Father say to those who are living in situations counter to Church teaching and who are thirsting for forgiveness?

At the synod we will be speaking about all the possible ways to help these families. But one thing should be very clear – something Pope Benedict left quite clear: people who are in a second union are not excommunicated and should be integrated into Church life. This was made crystal clear. I also said this quite clearly: Drawing closer to the mass, to catechesis, their children’s education, charity… There are so many different options.

Your Holiness, I would like to end with some questions about your vocation. At the beginning of March, 2013, you were getting ready to retire. You had already decided where you were going to live, and so on. However, you soon became one of the most famous people in the World. How do you deal with this situation?

I haven’t lost my peace. It is a gift… peace is a gift from God. It is a gift that God has given me, something I could not imagine, considering my age and all that. And, what is more, I had already prepared my return, imagining that a Pope would never be chosen during Holy Week. So, if it was taking a long time, we would have to be done by Saturday, before Palm Sunday. So I bought a return ticket, so as to be able to celebrate mass on Easter Sunday and I even left my sermon prepared on my desk. It was something I did not expect. In December I was going to be leaving my diocese, for which a successor would be nominated. It turned out different…

…and now you have quite an adventure before you.

Everything… But I did not lose the peace. I didn’t lose the peace.

Pope Francis, you are loved all over the world, your popularity rises, according to polls, and many would like to see you win a Nobel Prize… But Jesus warned his followers that they would “be hated because of my Name”. How do you feel, your Holiness?

I often ask myself what my cross will be like, what my cross is like… Crosses exist. You can’t see them, but they are there. Jesus also, for a certain time, was very popular, and look at how that turned out. So nobody has their happiness guaranteed in this world. The only thing I ask is that this peace in my heart be maintained and that He keep me in his Grace, because, until the last moment we are sinners and we can renounce his Grace. One ting consoles me: That Saint Peter committed a serious sin – denying Jesus – and then they made him Pope… If they made him Pope despite that sin, with all the sins I have it is a great consolation, because the Lord will look after me as he looked after Peter. But Peter died on a cross, whereas I don’t know how I’ll die. Let Him decide, so long as he gives me peace, may His will be done.

How do you manage your freedom, being Pope?... Once you showed up at a mass in St. Peter’s, early in the morning, you went to the optician to get your glasses fixed… Do you need to have contact with people?

Yes, I need to get out, but it’s still not quite time… But little by little I have some contact with people on Wednesdays and that helps me a lot. What I miss most about Buenos Aires is going out and walking in the street.

Shall we end with some quick questions? What keeps you awake at night?

The truth? I sleep like a rock!

[laughs]

And what motivates you?

Having lots of work to do.

Can non-urgent business wait?

What isn’t urgent?! The little things can wait until tomorrow, or after. There are things which are very urgent and others which are not so urgent… But I couldn’t tell you, specifically, if this is more urgent than that.

How often do you go to confession?

Every fifteen or twenty days. I confess to a Franciscan priest, father Blanco, who is kind enough to come here and confess me. And I never had to call an ambulance to take him back, in shock over my sins! [laughs]

How, and where, would you like to die?

Wherever God wants. Seriously… Wherever God wants.

Final question: What do you imagine eternity is like?

When I was younger I imagined it would be very dull [laughs]. Now, I think it is a Mystery of encounter. It is almost unimaginable, but it must be very beautiful and wonderful to meet with God.

Thank you Holy Father.

Thank you, and a big hello to all your listeners. And please, I ask you to pray for me. God bless you and may the Virgin Mary of Fatima protect you.



Translation: Filipe d'Avillez


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  • Pedro Leal Narciso
    20 set, 2015 Setúbal - Portugal 17:32
    Gostaria Que Me Traduzissem o Texto, Para Português. Não Entendo de Inglês. Obrigado
  • Paul Mangion
    15 set, 2015 Malta 21:06
    I would like to thank you for translating the interview so that, I like others who don't know Portuguese, can understand it